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The Beast Revelation

michae1 · 61 · 16651

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Do you agree with my conclusions?

yes
no
partially
I do not understand.
I am not a Christian.

michae1

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The Beast Revelation

This letter is dedicated to all Christians.

The following letter is a summary of Revelation 13. Its purpose is to show the method used in finding the conclusions which have been stated. Nothing new has been added from my previous letters. It is more of a compilation of them all. This writing is the same material in different words. The Bible uses this same method of explanation. There are four Gospels. In each you see a different view of the same material. This can be beneficial because the meaning becomes more exact. Although, if this is a first time reader, then this will all be news to you. With that in mind, here we go.

The first thing that should be addressed when doing any study of Bible prophecy is what questions do I intend to answer. Some of these questions can seem a little simplistic, but their answers are much more complicated. In my studies there were only a few questions that I saw as needing an answer. My questions were very simple. First, who is this individual who is identified by the number 666? Second, who is the false prophet and how does he make the whole world worship the beast whose number is 666. Another question has to do with these same individuals. Could these two individuals be the same person, or for that matter Satan himself? Where is Satan during all this? That last question is very important. It actually goes straight to the answer of all the questions. Finally, when would someone expect to see these individuals on the Earth? Literally, what time frame should I see them? Those are the questions. The answers are much more involved.

This narrative will attempt to show how the answers are figured out. These answers can be seen from events that happen in the nightly news. This leads me to a key, which most of us know, but most of us forget. The Bible is a history book. Some events have happened, while some are waiting to happen. It is the ones that have not happened that we are most concerned with. Here is another key. By the way, these keys I speak of are keys to understanding. The Lord spoke in parables. The reason he gave was that it was for some to know the mysteries of God, while it was for some to know not. In hearing, they do not hear. In seeing, they do not see. I compare it to telling the truth, while hiding it at the same time. Many of the parables that the Lord spoke he immediately gave an answer to. He showed how he used certain symbols and words to describe subjects and then gave their meanings. Now for the punch line. The Lord also spoke in parables that he did not identify. These parables go straight to the hidden meaning of these end times. Another key is word substitution. An example of this is a pretty well-known item from Revelation. This word substitution deals with Revelation 13:1. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. In Revelation 17 those heads and horns are defined. The heads are identified as mountains, while the horns are identified as kings. This changes the whole picture of what the beast is symbolically to what it is literally. Now Rev.13:1 can be read as follows with just the items discussed thus far. And I saw a beast rise up out of the sea having seven mountains and ten kings. That is a simple and easy word substitution. Know that this will happen many times throughout the Bible.

Now, getting back to the questions. The question is, where is Satan? If this question can be answered, you can eliminate some others. Some prophecy teachers believe that Satan is the beast, or that Satan is the false prophet. This interpretation is misleading, and it also creates a stumbling block in the path to a proper interpretation. I almost always get this question. How can you know who the beast is when he cannot be revealed? 2nd Thess. Chapter 2 states that he cannot be revealed, until something is removed first. Most scholars have this part right. That is a picture of the Rapture. What they have wrong is that Satan and the beast are not the same individual. Satan cannot be revealed until after the rapture, but he is not the beast. Therefore, I can identify the beast and his false prophet. People say prove it. So I did. I told them how to understand using the keys that I have mentioned. Revelation 13 is a parable, but God is not giving the definition, or the explanation. This one is for us to figure out. Ok, so where is Satan? In the book of Job, we get a view of Satan's abilities. In one scene, he is discussing with God about Job. Question, where is God? He is in heaven. Also, in his conversation with God Satan is talking as if he knows and has seen Job. God declares that he can do whatever he wants to Job, but he was not allowed to kill him. Now we know something else about Satan. He also has access to the Earth, and can affect peoples lives. So, it appears that Satan can be everywhere he wants to be, on Earth or in heaven. We know Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven as per Revelation 12. This would further the idea that he is now in heaven. We also see Satan one other time, when he tempted Christ during his time on Earth. It says that he was taken to the wilderness to be tempted of Satan? Most people, and rightly so, have thought the wilderness to be a place on Earth, but this is a parable I believe. The Lord was in the wilderness and was tempted by Satan, but the wilderness is in heaven. This parable is read in Isaiah 35. It is the wilderness and the solitary place where the redeemed of the Lord walk. So, this last item being the most hard to prove, suffice it to say, that when Rev.12 says Satan will be cast out, he must be there in heaven to be cast out. Alright, now we can answer a couple questions. One, Satan is himself, and he is in heaven. Therefore, he is not the beast or the false prophet. These three work together, but each has his own identity.

Now to dissect Revelation 13. As I have already stated, Revelation 13 is a word substitution parable. The seven heads are seven mountains and the ten horns are ten kings. Ok, we know from this description that the beast as described is a group of possibly ten countries. This brings me to another point. There are three definitions for the beast in Revelation 13. The first is a group of countries rising up out of the sea. The second is in Rev.13:11 and is a beast with two horns (kings). Remember horns are kings as per Rev. 17. Finally, there is a beast who is identified by the number 666. It is this last beast that causes all to receive a mark and that no man can buy and sell save he who has the mark, his number, or his name. There are three items here. Nowhere does it say that the mark is the number 666. This might have been a good guess 20 yrs. ago , but it is pretty hard to believe. Imagine people running around with a mark of 666 on their right hands. It sounds like a cartoon, but this is what the prophecy teachers want you to believe. Ok, another problem that sounds like a cartoon is the interpretation of the word "all." They want you to believe that no man could buy or sell if they did not worship the beast and take his mark. Interpreting the word "all" to mean everyone in the world. This is not the case. For one, we know that the beast is made up of only possibly ten countries. Everyone in this world lives in roughly 190 countries. I don't think we could possibly mean everyone. How about, all of those people concerned with the mark. Also, how do you cause all people concerned to receive a mark, and why? The most obvious way to mark everyone is at the voting booth. All people, rich and poor, small and great, or free and bond are potential voters. So, Mahmoud Abbas was elected president of the Palestinian Authority, and in the process all voters received an indelible ink mark on their right hands. This mark was to prevent double voting and corruption in the election. Ok, we have a mark. It is not 666. At this point he fits the part, but not completely. Still, there is no ready identification of 666 concerning him. This election was in January 2005.

Back to Rev.13. We have seven mountains and ten kings. Prophecy teachers want us to believe that a city with seven mountains is the seat of the antichrist and he rules with ten nations. Their logical conclusion was the Europe Union and the Vatican. This started the revived Roman empire theory. This theory has been around since the reformation. It is hard to believe this charade has gone on so long. Teachers are still preaching the Revived Roman Empire. This theory had some validity before the twentieth century and now has to be eliminated. None of these teachers could have predicted the fall of the Ottoman Empire and its division into so many separate sovereign nations. Back to our word substitution. There is an interesting item here concerning the word mountains in scripture. The word mountains can have two meanings. It can be either a mountain range, or a nation. This is the hardest part of this whole exercise, trying to figure out what mountains are describing. Teachers will have you believe it is a city with seven mountains. In actual fact, mountains here are referring to nations. This also pertains to the head wound. The wound was not a literal head wound at all, but was a nation that was wounded. The beast's head or nation was wounded and was healed. This is the Palestinian Authority after the beginning of the Oslo Accords. The land that Israel possessed was now being given back to the Palestinians and the beast's nation is being healed. Ok, so now I have seven nations and ten kings, Rev.13:1. Why do I have three more kings than nations? It seems I have a king for each nation, but three left over. In Daniel in says the beast subdued three kings. These three kings don't necessarily have to be from different countries. It seems so, but is not expressly mentioned. It is another parable. The three kings who were subdued by the beast were Israeli Prime Ministers. These three Prime Ministers all served during the seven years of the Oslo Accords and were voted out of office because of terror perpetrated during Yasser Arafat's rule. Now, I am down to seven nations. These seven nations will wage war. I can easily see seven nations that will wage war here very soon; Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iran and the Palestinian Authority or Iraq, and there opponent Israel. This is exactly the same beast that is presented in Rev.17:10, just in a slightly different appearance. There are seven kings, five are fallen. This means five kings were defeated in war. Israel is referred to the "one that is," and the one that came later is the Palestinian Authority. This is a description of Israel's war for Independence. Literally, this was the beast being born. The war in 1967 is the beast rising up out of the sea in Rev.13:1. It was the unresolved issues of this conflict that resulted in the Oslo Accords of 1993. This seven year peace treaty was confirmed by Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat.

Now, there is another beast in Rev.13:11. This beast has two horns or kings. This is a picture of the Palestinian Authority after the elections of January 2006. This is when Hamas ran in the elections and won a majority in parliament. Now the P.A. was a country with two kings. Abbas was the President and Ismail Haniyeh was the Prime Minister. Here is where the problem with money came about. Western Nations did not want to donate money to a known terrorist organization so looked for a way they could still fund Abbas's P.A., but not let any money get to Hamas. This is when the number 666 identified an individual. The temporary international mechanism was adopted on June 16, 2006. This program allowed Western Nations to donate funds directly to Abbas, while bypassing Hamas. If you were a member of Fatah, or on Abbas's payroll you got paid. This is how the people were allowed to buy and sell. They received salaries, whereas before the mechanism, they had no way of getting paid from the Government. Hamas did not receive salaries. Also, Hamas did not receive the mark of the beast. They boycotted the elections for President in Jan. 2005.
It is more obvious who is being talked about the closer you get to the end.

In conclusion, to my three beast definitions. Mahmoud Abbas fits all three definitions. He was a member of the P.A. when it was formed. He took over from Yasser Arafat after his death. He was one of the two kings of the second beast in Rev.13:11. Lastly, he is the one identified by the number 666, which could have been Arafat had he lived.

Now, concerning the the false prophet. The following four verses below all refer to the false prophet, Ismail Haniyeh.

Rev.13:11- and I beheld another beast coming up out of the Earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev.13:12- And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein, to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev.13:13- "And he does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the Earth in the sight of men".
Rev.13:15- And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast, should be killed.


Hamas exercised all the power of the first beast (Abbas's P.A.) because they were now an equal partner in the Government. Also, the leader of Hamas caused them to worship or honor the first beast because Hamas would not honor the first beast. The first beast was the PA without Hamas as a member. The image of the beast is what the Government of Mahmoud Abbas represented. Verse 12 does not mention the image yet, we are just informed that the false prophet caused them to worship the first beast. Verse 14 and 15 gives the details of how that worshipping or honor was to commence. An image was created of the first beast that he (the false prophet) caused to be honored. This image of the beast is three items; the recognition of Israel, the honoring of all prior Palestinian agreements, and a renunciation of terror.

The last question I think that needs addressed is how do you know the timing is right? Meaning, there have been so many translations, how do you know that this one is correct? This is a question I always get asked. The answer, in my mind, is sort of a mix between two different prophecies. The first is the seven day prophecy as recorded in Genesis. It is a similtude between this and the amount of recorded time that has already happened on Earth. In the book of Peter, God says one day to him is as a thousand years. If that idea is applied to the Genesis creation, everyday that God created something one thousand years passed. Finally, on the last day he rested from his work, and his rest was one thousand years or one of God's days. This was one full week or 7000 years. After God's rest he started his work again, and he created Adam. Starting with Adam, it was approximately 4000 years to the time of Christ. Also, we know that Christ was here roughly 2000 years ago. If God was to be consistent with his one week schedule, then we could expect his day of rest to fall somewhere after the year two thousand. 4000 plus 2000 is six days and on the seventh he rested for one thousand years. This is not an exact estimate, but it can put you in the right ballpark when searching for the correct timing of Revelation. This is the estimate. The next item is more exact. Daniel 9:27 says that he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Many in Hebrew is Rab. This was a covenant confirmed with Yitzhak Rabin. It was the beginning of land for peace, or the Oslo Accords. When you see this agreement happen you should be aware that this prophecy will last seven years. There is only one problem with this item. Prior to it happening, everyone thought that the end of the seventh year of the agreement God would return and begin his rest. Well, that did not  happen. The reason was a logical misinterpretation. It just mentions that this agreement must occur along with the prophecies mentioned, not that they would all happen and end on the last day of the seventh year. This has thrown everyone watching off-course for a time. Although, this was not such a terrible mistake if the watcher could see the right answer and get his, or her perspective back. When you have these two items coinciding at the expected time, then you know Revelation can be interpreted with accuracy. The events should start happening, as they have, as I have recorded in this letter.

May God bless all who read this letter.

Michae1


michae1

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palailai

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nagkausap  kami ni Lord hindi xia agree sa conclusion...pirmado na ang appointment ko bilang "Adopted Son of God".


vicces

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chinito77

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Hahaba ang discussion natin diyan about Revelation.  :D

Anyway I am a no fan of the time frame on the creation of humanity or the world.. the 2000 years after Christ is exact, but going beyond that for me is wrong.

Ok here were some facts that humanity existed for more than 6,000 years:

1. How do you explain the 9,500 year old city that is located under water in the Gulf of Cambay off the Western Coast of India.

2. Recent findings from archaeologists in China have revised the generally accepted theory that Chinese civilization originated 5,000 years.. Based on all recent discoveries some even dated back well to 8,000 years ago.. The current estimate was 8,000-10,000 years ago.

The submerged cities only proves that the Flood during the time of Noah was real.

But... During these span of 8,000 - 10,000 year old findings belong to already a civilized community, city and even state. What more if we are going back when Adam and Eve were just created? Definitely it is even farther and older way back more than 10,000 years.. Who knows maybe 12,000 or 15,000 years ago?

Now here were my some questions I also wish to ask before we continue:

A star (Alpha Centauri) located 4.37 light years away to be seen by us it simply means the light we are seeing now is way back 4.37 years ago. If it explodes now, we will only see it after 4.37 years.

So:

Andromeda Galaxy is located approximately 2.5million light years from earth.

For us to be able to see it NOW It simply implies the light we saw was 2.5million years ago, if it explodes now.. We won't be even be able to see it in our lifetime.

Then how do you explain to me God's creation of 7 days? Even if you simply means that each day is 1,000 years.. Hey The Sun, The Moon, The Earth, even the Stars and galaxies as i mentioned above were millions and billion years old???

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and earth.

Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Genesis 1:3  And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

If light was created 1,000 years (As assumed per day of God). How come the Sun was way way older?

Historical Findings/discoveries can already prove that humanity existed for more than 6,000 years.. As I've said earlier it could go beyond 10,000 years.

The creation was made
Finally, on the last day he rested from his work, and his rest was one thousand years or one of God's days. This was one full week or 7000 years. After God's rest he started his work again, and he created Adam.

Wrong

If you read carefully Genesis Chapter 1..

The creation was made continually and God only rested after He created Man on the sixth and final day of creation.

Can be seen in Genesis 1:26-27

I also wonder why people kept their focus on Israel thingy about the end times? Just do your part as a true Christian and you don't have to worry about the exact time frame thingy..  Do you guys even know Israelis practice Judaism? Those were already Apostate. How about the Palestinian Christians??? Syrian Christians???  :gun2: :gun2: :gun2:

« Last Edit: Dec 06, 2013, 01:24 PM by chinito77 »


chinito77

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Anyway, I hope it satisfies all the readers here in disputing the 1,000, 2000, 4,000 or even 6,000 time frame thingy..  :hihi:

I am not interested on a heated debate here.  :harhar:

BTW my end times view is Amillennialism. (You guys can study about that)

I will strongly recommend the books of Michael Scott Horton if anyone is interested of other reading materials.

We are already in the symbolic millennium. The time is near. Repent! Judgement will just simply come as a surprise.. While a lot of people will still be looking towards the Middle East thingy issues...

The rebuilding of temple is not literal.

Christ said to the Jews destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in 3 days.

Christ resurrected after 3 days when He died on the cross. THAT IS THE COMPLETION

AND WE ARE NOW IN CHRIST. This is the Church.

The temple is no longer needed.

The temple was built before for offerings, atonement, etc, etc. as a symbol.

Everything in the old testament was pointing to Christ.

Even in Genesis 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

IT WAS REFERRING TO CHRIST. When he died on the cross and resurrected, Satan is already defeated. 

Everything in the Bible must be Christ centered.

Just for a trivia:
If you are wondering if Adam and Eve were saved... YES they were saved.

Genesis 3:21 God made for Adam and his wife garments of skins.. It means animal was sacrificed and killed. Blood was shed.. And most importantly they look forward, believed, hold on to the promise of the deliverer as referred to the one in Genesis 3:15 in the future. WHICH IS CHRIST
« Last Edit: Dec 06, 2013, 01:43 PM by chinito77 »


palailai

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faith/bible tells us that God created the universe, science tells how God's creation works...


regor

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No one can exactly explain how god created the universe, di natin kaya un pre, It's just that something magical happens Mahirap bang intindihin un? kung buong buo ang paniniwala natin sa kanya bakit pa natin questionin kung pano nya ginawa ang lahat ng bagay-bagay sa mundo? not unless may doubt tayo.. :peace:


michae1

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Hahaba ang discussion natin diyan about Revelation.  :D

Anyway I am a no fan of the time frame on the creation of humanity or the world.. the 2000 years after Christ is exact, but going beyond that for me is wrong.

Ok here were some facts that humanity existed for more than 6,000 years:

1. How do you explain the 9,500 year old city that is located under water in the Gulf of Cambay off the Western Coast of India.

2. Recent findings from archaeologists in China have revised the generally accepted theory that Chinese civilization originated 5,000 years.. Based on all recent discoveries some even dated back well to 8,000 years ago.. The current estimate was 8,000-10,000 years ago.

The submerged cities only proves that the Flood during the time of Noah was real.

But... During these span of 8,000 - 10,000 year old findings belong to already a civilized community, city and even state. What more if we are going back when Adam and Eve were just created? Definitely it is even farther and older way back more than 10,000 years.. Who knows maybe 12,000 or 15,000 years ago?

Now here were my some questions I also wish to ask before we continue:

A star (Alpha Centauri) located 4.37 light years away to be seen by us it simply means the light we are seeing now is way back 4.37 years ago. If it explodes now, we will only see it after 4.37 years.

So:

Andromeda Galaxy is located approximately 2.5million light years from earth.

For us to be able to see it NOW It simply implies the light we saw was 2.5million years ago, if it explodes now.. We won't be even be able to see it in our lifetime.

Then how do you explain to me God's creation of 7 days? Even if you simply means that each day is 1,000 years.. Hey The Sun, The Moon, The Earth, even the Stars and galaxies as i mentioned above were millions and billion years old???

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and earth.

Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Genesis 1:3  And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

If light was created 1,000 years (As assumed per day of God). How come the Sun was way way older?

Historical Findings/discoveries can already prove that humanity existed for more than 6,000 years.. As I've said earlier it could go beyond 10,000 years.

The creation was made
Wrong

If you read carefully Genesis Chapter 1..

The creation was made continually and God only rested after He created Man on the sixth and final day of creation.

Can be seen in Genesis 1:26-27

I also wonder why people kept their focus on Israel thingy about the end times? Just do your part as a true Christian and you don't have to worry about the exact time frame thingy..  Do you guys even know Israelis practice Judaism? Those were already Apostate. How about the Palestinian Christians??? Syrian Christians???  :gun2: :gun2: :gun2:



 What gave you the idea that I was saying the Earth was only six thousand years old?  I never said the Earth was 6000 years old. You are attributing an idea to me, and then trying to explain to the forum why I am wrong. Are you assuming I believe something because of your interaction with other Christians? I believe the Earth is billions of years old. My explanation for the 6000 years has to do with current human history and this age, not the universe and how it was created. It is about God's timing and why Revelation can be interpreted now and not at some other point in history. The universe creation is another story altogether.
« Last Edit: Dec 07, 2013, 12:59 AM by michae1 »


richpulubi

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I'm curious...is hell full of buddhists, hindus and muslims?  Even if they were 'good'  on earth?


michae1

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I'm curious...is hell full of buddhists, hindus and muslims?  Even if they were 'good'  on earth?

  The way you have phrased your question implies you already know the answer.


richpulubi

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  The way you have phrased your question implies you already know the answer.

Me?  I'm ambivalent...

Actually, I'd really like to know your opinion.


michae1

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I'm curious...is hell full of buddhists, hindus and muslims?  Even if they were 'good'  on earth?
There are two groups of people, Christians and non-Christians. Hell is the place for non-Christians.


Homeboy

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There are two groups of people, Christians and non-Christians. Hell is the place for non-Christians.

A LOT of people will be pissed by this. Probably around 5 Billion people.
Hell is bigger than I thought.


freefront

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^Not to mention these Christians that a Jehovah's Witness asked me about( Yes, both the INC and Jehovah"s  Witness do telemarketing nowadays).

JW: Ma'am, ano po sa palagay nyo ang mangyayari sa mga kaluluwa ng mga namatay sa bagyong Yolanda.
Me: Huh? What do you mean what's gonna happen to them?
JW: Sila po ba ay maliligtas blah blah
Me: What?!? What did they do? They died in parang aksidente. Why are you asking me?!? What happens to their souls is between them and the God they pray, too. Where are you going with this?
JW: > he reads a passage from the Bible about mga nilalang na namatay na hindi makakapunta sa langit but it was in real deep Tagalog so the lot went over my head. The use of nakakalitong Tagalog is a modus to confuse people to entertain these telemarketers for far longer than necessary, if you ask me.


richpulubi

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There are two groups of people, Christians and non-Christians. Hell is the place for non-Christians.

And so, Moses, Noah, and even Mary and Joseph are in hell?


michae1

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And so, Moses, Noah, and even Mary and Joseph are in hell?

   Only a remnant of the Jews will be saved. Jesus knows who, I do not. I cannot begin to read into anyone's mind. Anyone can be saved as long as they believe in Christ and accept Jesus as their sacrifice for sin. Any ethnic group, any religion, or anyone can be saved, if they believe in Jesus. This could be a lifelong belief, or just in a fleeting second. Like the thief who died on the cross next to Jesus, he asked for forgiveness and Jesus saved him right then. Before that moment he was condemned. I once heard the story, and I can't at this time site the verses, that when Jesus died on the cross and was dead for three days, he went to the prisons and freed all those who would believe, which had no savior until Jesus had died. After the third day, he was resurrected and brought all those who would believe with him to Heaven. Can someone name the verses I am thinking of? I do not know the location at the moment. Michae1
« Last Edit: Dec 08, 2013, 02:41 PM by michae1 »


rds

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...that when Jesus died on the cross and was dead for three days, he went to the prisons and freed all those who would believe, which had no savior until Jesus had died. After the third day, he was resurrected and brought all those who would believe with him to Heaven...

you mean "prison" is hell (or maybe purgatory), right?

who could be more stupid than someone who is in anguish in hell for thousand years, and when Jesus preached to them (as you have interpreted) will not believe.

...don't you think its quite unfair for those who have died after Jesus death, wala man lang sila second chance!


Homeboy

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 :offtopic:

IMHO Two of the topics that people should avoid. Politics and Religion.

But if you think about it, one is just another form of the other.  :harhar:

 :ontopic:

ano nga ulet yung topic?  :harhar:


chinito77

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What gave you the idea that I was saying the Earth was only six thousand years old?  I never said the Earth was 6000 years old. You are attributing an idea to me, and then trying to explain to the forum why I am wrong. Are you assuming I believe something because of your interaction with other Christians? I believe the Earth is billions of years old. My explanation for the 6000 years has to do with current human history and this age, not the universe and how it was created. It is about God's timing and why Revelation can be interpreted now and not at some other point in history. The universe creation is another story altogether.

Yes I have explained also the current human history and this age.

I have stated accurate historical facts, archaeological findings from India and China to prove that the current human history is well beyond 6,000 years. (There are a lot of references that can be found even in the website alone, if you don't have any plans to purchase books).

You have also stated about the 1,000 years is equal to 1 day by God from the book of Peter. Do you think that is literal one day? or was it figuratively/symbolical?

Lastly, I simply stated facts about creation. to create awareness about the creation. Do you really believe the Earth is Billions of years old?

It is also like asking which came first Chicken or Egg? May pusod ba si Adam and Eve?

I do believe the creation was made literally one day each. For a total of 6 days.

Now why was the Earth and Universe billions of years old?  :yoohoo:

Simple... Adam and Eve were created MATURE beings. (wala silang pusod, di nila kelangan mag aral, etc., etc.,) The entire universe was created mature.

In order to interpret the REVELATION correctly, one has to understand, know the purpose of the writer why it is written, the context, etc etc of all books in the Bible. (including the book of Peter)

I myself I would admit and I will never claim to have fully understand the Bible or all its books. So I am no longer dwelling much heavily in interpreting the Revelation. There are far a lot more important things in the Bible than looking at WHEN will be the precise/exact/or approximate date of the judgement.
« Last Edit: Dec 09, 2013, 02:47 AM by chinito77 »


akoni

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you mean "prison" is hell (or maybe purgatory), right?

who could be more stupid than someone who is in anguish in hell for thousand years, and when Jesus preached to them (as you have interpreted) will not believe.

...don't you think its quite unfair for those who have died after Jesus death, wala man lang sila second chance!

"Jesus descended into hell" The Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades were often used by the Jews to refer in general to "the abode of the dead." These words are sometimes loosely translated into English as "hell" (e.g., in the King James Version of the Bible), however, in these instances, the word may refer to either the abode of the damned or the abode of the just, or it may broadly refer to both. Similarly, the Greek words Phulake and Paradaiso may be translated as "hell."

And by the way, Purgatory is not for 2nd chances, it's a wrong notion from some other people that its 2nd chances. Here's what Catholic teaching about Purgatory...

CCC#1030:
 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.



akoni

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   Only a remnant of the Jews will be saved. Jesus knows who, I do not. I cannot begin to read into anyone's mind. Anyone can be saved as long as they believe in Christ and accept Jesus as their sacrifice for sin. Any ethnic group, any religion, or anyone can be saved, if they believe in Jesus. Michae1

Aside from all old testament people who havn't known Jesus, what about those children who had incapacity of knowing Jesus,what about those areas na hindi pa narating ng mga missionary paano sila? muslim, judaism, hinduism, taoism, etc. they dont believe in Jesus kawawa naman.


Wills

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:offtopic:

IMHO Two of the topics that people should avoid. Politics and Religion.

But if you think about it, one is just another form of the other.  :harhar:

 :ontopic:

ano nga ulet yung topic?  :harhar:

100% agree


akoni

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As long as we keep the discussion healthy that would be fine.  Intelligent and substantive argumentation is good, its one way of seeking and establishing a conclusion and let the truth afloat. we will just bear in mind too that at the end of the day we will agree to disagree.   


michae1

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Aside from all old testament people who havn't known Jesus, what about those children who had incapacity of knowing Jesus,what about those areas na hindi pa narating ng mga missionary paano sila? muslim, judaism, hinduism, taoism, etc. they dont believe in Jesus kawawa naman.

  Satan is the God of this world. He does everything in his power to keep Jesus out of everything that he claims. If you go to a Muslim country, and you are a Christian, you get persecuted. It happens that way in many places of the world. Saudi Arabia won't allow a Christian church to be built on their soil, but they build mosques everywhere they can. People like to be with those who believe as they do, even if they are ignorant of the truth. The lies push away the truth, until the lies become the law and religion. So, whole societies are formed on lies, which is why God said, "wide is the path to destruction." More people will be in hell, then ever find their way to heaven.  How does that help the ignorant child? It doesn't. Ignorance is going to cause a great deal of pain to whole families.


akoni

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I don't fully get your point Michae1 but as what I understand it seems that your god is a cruel god and a god of injustice. Imagine even invincible ignorance still has no exemption. I dont think we have the same God michae1 if that's the case.


chinito77

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I don't fully get your point Michae1 but as what I understand it seems that your god is a cruel god and a god of injustice. Imagine even invincible ignorance still has no exemption. I dont think we have the same God michae1 if that's the case.

With regards to salvation.

I believe in election and predestination.

We have been saved through grace and by faith.

We have been chosen before the foundation of this world according to His good pleasure and will.

(Can easily be read in the first chapter of the book of ephesians)

God is not unjust.

We have sinned. We are all bound to be condemned forever. God did not even gave the angels second chance when they fall. We have no right to complain why he was saved and she was not. God the creator of the heavens and earth has the right to chose (elect) whom will He save.

Yes i know this is hard to be accepted by most... but as we study more indepth the bible and true gospel. We will understand this. I pray may God open up your eyes and heart in understanding His word.

With regards to infants, unborn childrens, or mentally problematic children who cant think normally. I believe, if they are chosen/elect. They will be saved. If not, they are not saved.
« Last Edit: Dec 09, 2013, 11:00 PM by chinito77 »


INDO

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Saudi Arabia won't allow a Christian church to be built on their soil, but they build mosques everywhere they can. People like to be with those who believe as they do, even if they are ignorant of the truth.

meron naman Christian Church sa saudi arabia sir, nakapasok ako noong nasa saudi arabia pa ako, parang gymnasium nga lang, pero simbahan pa rin :)


chinito77

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I don't fully get your point Michae1 but as what I understand it seems that your god is a cruel god and a god of injustice. Imagine even invincible ignorance still has no exemption. I dont think we have the same God michae1 if that's the case.

meron naman Christian Church sa saudi arabia sir, nakapasok ako noong nasa saudi arabia pa ako, parang gymnasium nga lang, pero simbahan pa rin :)

Honestly, there is no such thing such as ignorance... IMHO.. Even way back from our ancestors.. Even during the days before Christ.

We all are descendants of Adam and Eve, the one and true God should have been passed down from generations.. Even during the very wicked days... Still Noah was found to be righteous.. Sa again.. we all descended from Noah and his Sons after the flood.. They knew whom to offer sacrifices after the flood. But look what happened now after generations have passed?

But even so still Abraham was found to be righteous and walked with God. So God made a covenant with Abraham and Christ will come from his lineage.

Even after Moses led the people of Israel out of Egypt, when Moses was gone.. what happened? The people created a golden calf.

Is that correct? No.

So what really happens is.. Because of HUMAN SINFUL nature and WICKEDNESS people created their own gods, images, etc. etc. according to what they think was right.

So using the reason as they never knew Christ and the TRUE GOD is not an excuse. It is not ignorance.

I can't type too much a while ago because I am visiting this site from my smart phone.

I hope this explanation is enough to convince people to stop claiming ignorance as an excuse to accuse God of being unjust or cruel or whatever. Because ignorance is never really part of the equation.

God is never unfair and He is always JUST.


akoni

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With regards to salvation.

I believe in election and predestination.


Predistination/ calvinist teaching on this matter contradicts human freewill na Dios na rin mismo ang nagbigay.it seems God contradict his own rule if predistination is quite true and the more its unfair for those people whose doing all their best para mapalapit sa Dios but sorry for them, no matter what they do they were not distined as elect.

God wills all men to be saved and so gives sufficient grace to all to be saved;
But not all men are saved; those who are not saved are damned by their own free will.

We have been saved through grace and by faith.

We have been chosen before the foundation of this world according to His good pleasure and will.

(Can easily be read in the first chapter of the book of ephesians)

God is not unjust.

We have sinned. We are all bound to be condemned forever. God did not even gave the angels second chance when they fall. We have no right to complain why he was saved and she was not. God the creator of the heavens and earth has the right to chose (elect) whom will He save.

Yes i know this is hard to be accepted by most... but as we study more indepth the bible and true gospel. We will understand this. I pray may God open up your eyes and heart in understanding His word.

The reason God didn't forgive the Angels because of the same thing FREEWILL. Angels are spirits and not bound by time and space, thus they know what lies ahead but still they chose to against God, meaning irreversible decision (full knowledge) they made  thus irreversible consiquences they've got.  while we human, we are bound to time and space thus we don't know whats next that's why we still have a chance to fix  in accordance  to our freewill.

With regards to infants, unborn childrens, or mentally problematic children who cant think normally. I believe, if they are chosen/elect. They will be saved. If not, they are not saved.

They will be saved if not then God is a cruel God, Hindi pinili ng mga ito na ganun ang kalalabasan nila, so its quite unfair for them if they will not be saved. Invincible ignorance are those people na wala talagang alam, hindi naabot ng gospel, hindi alam ang katotohanan but with all their innocence, their good conscience namumuhay sila nang marangal. Mapapaloob sila sa sinabi ni Hesus sa Luke 23:24 "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."


akoni

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Honestly, there is no such thing such as ignorance... IMHO.. Even way back from our ancestors.. Even during the days before Christ.

We all are descendants of Adam and Eve, the one and true God should have been passed down from generations.. Even during the very wicked days... Still Noah was found to be righteous.. Sa again.. we all descended from Noah and his Sons after the flood.. They knew whom to offer sacrifices after the flood. But look what happened now after generations have passed?

But even so still Abraham was found to be righteous and walked with God. So God made a covenant with Abraham and Christ will come from his lineage.

Even after Moses led the people of Israel out of Egypt, when Moses was gone.. what happened? The people created a golden calf.

Is that correct? No.

So what really happens is.. Because of HUMAN SINFUL nature and WICKEDNESS people created their own gods, images, etc. etc. according to what they think was right.

So using the reason as they never knew Christ and the TRUE GOD is not an excuse. It is not ignorance.

I can't type too much a while ago because I am visiting this site from my smart phone.

I hope this explanation is enough to convince people to stop claiming ignorance as an excuse to accuse God of being unjust or cruel or whatever. Because ignorance is never really part of the equation.

God is never unfair and He is always JUST.

The example you gave us here is not what ignorance at all, Moses was already there as a messenger/mediator of God, with all what Moses had done, miracles , leading these people from egypt to promise land, do you think we could still equate it as ignorance? not at all, they use their freewill to not follow Moses or to against God. they reject the truth. I'll give you an example to contrast with what your saying versus invincible ignorance.

Pastor preaching heresy, even if he knows already the truth that the denomination he's affiliated with was only built by man but still continue to preached it because of the fellowship and salary he got from his denomination. (another analogy from your example) do you think this guy will be saved? I don't think so, why? because he rejected the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:10
10 At may buong daya ng kalikuan sa nangapapahamak; sapagka't hindi nila tinanggap ang pagibig sa katotohanan, upang sila'y mangaligtas.

Invincible ignorance; those or brothers and sisters na hindi pa narating  like or native aetas, tiboli, ibaloy etc. most of these people they didn't know whats the truth, they didn't know about Jesus. Could they end up in hell? are they not ignorant? Is this  what the reason why God built his Church to continue his mission which are to teach, to rule and to sanctify?

« Last Edit: Dec 10, 2013, 07:52 AM by akoni »


rds

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richpulubi

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chinito77

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Invincible ignorance; those or brothers and sisters na hindi pa narating  like or native aetas, tiboli, ibaloy etc. most of these people they didn't know whats the truth, they didn't know about Jesus. Could they end up in hell? are they not ignorant? Is this  what the reason why God built his Church to continue his mission which are to teach, to rule and to sanctify?

As the saying goes: Ignorance of the Law excuses no one

I don't have the right to judge. But I'll explain it again this time again briefly. And you'll know the answer on how I understand the salvation.

We all belong to Adam's race.
Adam knew and worship the True God.

We all descended from Noah after the flood.
Noah knew and worship the True God.

Studying deeply in history will also let you know that there are records in Sumerian and even Babylonian about the GREAT FLOOD.

Even in Chinese calligraphy the word for boat includes the word "Eight Mouths" or Eight People. What does that mean? Eight People have been saved (Noah and his family).

Our brothers Aetas, Tiboli, Ibaloy were all descendants of Noah after the flood.

Abraham also descended from Noah after the flood. How come Abraham worship the True God and the Aetas don't?

Simple answer: After generations passed down from Noah, people created their own gods, images, their own form of worship which they think was right. It was because of their sinful nature. So are we gonna blame the ancestors of the Aetas after Noah for their ignorance?

So, to say that the Aetas are ignorant is WRONG. Tracing their roots will go back definitely to Noah. Same also with us, tracing it back, our ancestral line came from Noah. Because only Noah and his family was saved after the flood.

Again I repeat for the last time. If Noah knew whom to worship, why is it a lot of his descendants don't??? Now we call it INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE, is that correct??? Is that the fault of God??? Should we blame God if He punishes the sinners???? Remember God is Just.

Can be seen in the book of Ephesians First Chapter:
We have been saved by GRACE.
We have been saved by FAITH.
We have been saved by HIS GOOD PLEASURE AND WILL.
We have been chosen before THE CREATION OF THIS WORLD.

Salvation is not because of our works.
 
« Last Edit: Dec 10, 2013, 12:26 PM by chinito77 »


chinito77

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Predistination/ calvinist teaching on this matter contradicts human freewill na Dios na rin mismo ang nagbigay.it seems God contradict his own rule if predistination is quite true and the more its unfair for those people whose doing all their best para mapalapit sa Dios but sorry for them, no matter what they do they were not distined as elect.

God wills all men to be saved and so gives sufficient grace to all to be saved;
But not all men are saved; those who are not saved are damned by their own free will.

Freewill? Do we really have freewill??? Your WILL is not FREE

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

How could we have freewill if we are enslaved by the sinful world?? We are basically dead. We need regeneration to be free from the bondage of sin.

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together in Christ by grace you have been saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not by your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Regeneration comes from God, not from men.

So we are not Free, we don't have the freewill to chose

Secondly, you said God wills all people to be saved. Really???? How come there are people in hell???? If God wanted to save everyone and yet He cannot save all His people. It simply means the God you believe is not in control.???

The reason God didn't forgive the Angels because of the same thing FREEWILL. Angels are spirits and not bound by time and space, thus they know what lies ahead but still they chose to against God, meaning irreversible decision (full knowledge) they made  thus irreversible consiquences they've got.  while we human, we are bound to time and space thus we don't know whats next that's why we still have a chance to fix  in accordance  to our freewill.

Yes, the angels are spirits, they are not bound by time and space. But it has nothing to do and no connection that they knew what lies ahead.

It is very ridiculous to even think and comprehend that the Angels knew they would rebel and fall, and still they would rebel to be condemned and punished forever.

They only knew what has been revealed to them.

They don't know what really lies ahead.

angels are not omniscient.

If angels are omniscient, then they are already demi-gods
« Last Edit: Dec 11, 2013, 02:26 AM by chinito77 »


chinito77

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They will be saved if not then God is a cruel God, Hindi pinili ng mga ito na ganun ang kalalabasan nila, so its quite unfair for them if they will not be saved. Invincible ignorance are those people na wala talagang alam, hindi naabot ng gospel, hindi alam ang katotohanan but with all their innocence, their good conscience namumuhay sila nang marangal. Mapapaloob sila sa sinabi ni Hesus sa Luke 23:24 "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

With regards to this I think I need to elaborate it. I have mentioned earlier about election.

If we are elect, we are saved and when we fathered a child, let say unborn. (Nakunan si misis o nalaglag, or birth problems at namatay). Definitely the child will be saved. Why? because it is a covenant line, from a lineage of the elect.

To those who were not elect. They won't be saved.

The lineage in the Genesis from Adam, Seth, Enosh, Kenan, Mahalalel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, Noah were lineage of the elect. Thus they are saved.

There is another lineage from Cain whom were not saved.

Same also with Abraham through Isaac and Ishmael.

We can already clearly see from the Genesis how does the election and covenant of God works.


richpulubi

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I only noticed now...

The entire article has to do with Palestinians and Jews and Israel...but nothing really about Christians.

So, why would the political issues of Palestine and Israel, which are really tiny countries, be connected to The Beast of Christian Belief?


rds

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^kaya nga tinanong ko ulit kay TS kung sino yung tinutukoy nyang beast. I saw the name of Arafat(?), but the explanation seem far from the claims of some "christian" sects pointing to a very influential person.
« Last Edit: Dec 11, 2013, 04:53 PM by rds »


chinito77

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I only noticed now...

The entire article has to do with Palestinians and Jews and Israel...but nothing really about Christians.

So, why would the political issues of Palestine and Israel, which are really tiny countries, be connected to The Beast of Christian Belief?

There is no connection. A lot of people just want to interpret Revelation always with the Jews, Israel, Palestine, Middle East thingy..

Some even mention about the Gog and Magog thing to this and that countries... The likes of EU, USA, USSR, Russia, China, or A unified Islamic Countries (Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, etc., etc.)

Which is totally absurd and ridiculous.. Rather than simply focus on sharing the Gospel, Evangelizing, Preaching, Teaching, etc. etc.

^kaya nga tinanong ko ulit kay TS kung sino yung tinutukoy nyang beast. I saw the name of Arafat(?), but the explanation seem far from the claims of some "christian" sects pointing to a very influential person.

The Beast could be a person, but it could also be a system.

It is a continuous succession of Beasts from time to time. It is not LITERAL ONE PERSON ONLY thingy

Some very evident and popular examples of person:

Emperor Nero or Rome
Adolf Hitler of Nazi Germany
Joseph Stalin of USSR
Mao Tse Dong of Communist China

Other (Beasts) persons that were not much given attention to:
Emperors and Leaders that demanded absolutism and worship including Asian Imperial Emperors and Kings (Like Imperial China, Korea, Japan, etc, before)
Kim Jong Il and now his son
Kim Jong Un of North Korea is one of the very example that is still presently alive and in power and the recently died father was even worshiped by his people.

Beast in the form of system:
The Roman Catholic Church during the Dark Ages. (I know a lot of my countrymen will bash me for saying this) that is why i don't really want to talk about the beasts and end up on a heated debate.
ISLAM.. A Still very powerful beast at present. (Again, my Muslim countrymen will surely bash me for this)
Fascism and Totalitarianism very obvious..
Communism the most obvious, everything is owned by the state, for the state and of the state. Well it simply means the state is the BEAST.

We all know communism had already failed.. Even China cannot claim they are communist anymore. Though yes the government could still be the communist party.

Others system Beast would be...
INC (Again, I would be bashed for saying this) If you read and understand the Bible carefully. Christ is 100% God and 100% Human, to go against this and claim that Christ is only 100% God or only 100% Human is already "A ANTI-CHRIST" because the very identity of Christ was being distorted, discredited and disputed.

What is the current BEAST now for me?? This time around it is already very subtle.. People are not conscious about this... And infact this is the most prevalent and most successful among all the systems before. Because it is currently prevalent among almost majority of the nations. 

IT IS THE CURRENT SOCIO-ECONOMIC SYSTEM
Capitalism, Consumerism..... Tsk tsk tsk...

We know work hard for money, everything is about money, we never earn enough to satisfy our unending WANTS, never contented, so we look for more money, more money to FEED MORE WANTS... and goes on and on with all about MONEY, MONEY and MONEY. WANTS, WANTS, more Wants and even more wants.

At the end of the day, unconsciously we are now worshiping MONEY and WE ARE SLAVE OF THE CURRENT SYSTEM.
« Last Edit: Dec 12, 2013, 03:12 AM by chinito77 »


Wills

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akoni

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I’m on vacation at the moment that ‘s why pretty hard for me to follow the thread and I am not bringing my laptop with me I am just using my phone that’s why pretty hard for me to answer all Chinito had posted, aside from that. We’re already hijacking the thread kaya medyo nakakahiya for those people following this thread.

“Ignorance of the law excuses no one”  hmmppp….We cannot apply this one to God, this is only applicable to the laws of the land, why? Because there’s no way for us human to determine what’s inside on his mind thus we don’t know if he’s telling a lie or not.

God is God, He knows everything, if he’s using that law for us then he’s not God anymore, unjust god if  that’s the case, we’re downgrading him to our level , it’s a bit funny.


akoni

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Again I repeat for the last time. If Noah knew whom to worship, why is it a lot of his descendants don't??? Now we call it INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE, is that correct??? Is that the fault of God??? Should we blame God if He punishes the sinners???? Remember God is Just.

They knew already whom to worship, God had sent them many prophets/mediator but still.. pinili paring nilang ayaw maniwala (freewill). not exactly what invisible ignorant is.

Can be seen in the book of Ephesians First Chapter:
We have been saved by GRACE.
We have been saved by FAITH.
We have been saved by HIS GOOD PLEASURE AND WILL.
We have been chosen before THE CREATION OF THIS WORLD.

Salvation is not because of our works.
 

I beg to disagree with this one, Ephesians is correct but not the way you interpret it, its true we are saved by grace but..

grace= faith + works

not

grace= faith alone

if you want to discuss this one on one with I will be very glad to dicusss it with you Chinito

« Last Edit: Dec 12, 2013, 11:17 PM by akoni »


akoni

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Freewill? Do we really have freewill??? Your WILL is not FREE

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

How could we have freewill if we are enslaved by the sinful world?? We are basically dead. We need regeneration to be free from the bondage of sin.

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together in Christ by grace you have been saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not by your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Regeneration comes from God, not from men.

So we are not Free, we don't have the freewill to chose

Secondly, you said God wills all people to be saved. Really???? How come there are people in hell???? If God wanted to save everyone and yet He cannot save all His people. It simply means the God you believe is not in control.???

Yes, the angels are spirits, they are not bound by time and space. But it has nothing to do and no connection that they knew what lies ahead.

It is very ridiculous to even think and comprehend that the Angels knew they would rebel and fall, and still they would rebel to be condemned and punished forever.

They only knew what has been revealed to them.

They don't know what really lies ahead.

angels are not omniscient.

If angels are omniscient, then they are already demi-gods


when you accept that they're not bound to time and space that's it period, if you understood what is meant by not bound to time and space then  no more discussion on this anymore. Its true that  God is the  only omniscient but when God partake this kind of privilege who are we to prevent it,the same with his resurrection and our resurrection in the future.
« Last Edit: Dec 13, 2013, 06:09 AM by akoni »


akoni

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With regards to this I think I need to elaborate it. I have mentioned earlier about election.

If we are elect, we are saved and when we fathered a child, let say unborn. (Nakunan si misis o nalaglag, or birth problems at namatay). Definitely the child will be saved. Why? because it is a covenant line, from a lineage of the elect.

To those who were not elect. They won't be saved.

The lineage in the Genesis from Adam, Seth, Enosh, Kenan, Mahalalel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, Noah were lineage of the elect. Thus they are saved.

There is another lineage from Cain whom were not saved.

Same also with Abraham through Isaac and Ishmael.

We can already clearly see from the Genesis how does the election and covenant of God works.

Salvation is not because you are in my lineage thus you're part of it already, NO!! it must be individual(Juan 1:17). It is not like circumcision in the old testament that if the father was circumcised thus he's wife and children were included also for the membership of Israel.


Oftentimes we are confuse between redemption and salvation in the bible, it looks synonimous but not at all, basically, redemption is collective and salvation is individual. By his passion, death, and resurrection, Christ redeemed humanity collectively from slavery to sin and from the debt of punishment mankind -- as a whole -- owed due to sin. Each and every person, Christian or non-Christian, is redeemed because he is a member of the human race.

Salvation is the application of redemption to individuals. Although a member of redeemed humanity, and therefore himself redeemed, a person can freely choose to deliberately reject the graces won for him by Christ and go to hell.
« Last Edit: Dec 13, 2013, 05:57 AM by akoni »


INDO

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There are two groups of people, Christians and non-Christians. Hell is the place for non-Christians.

What makes you conclude that Hell is the place for non-Christians?

Many non-Christians are behaving/living their lives far better than some Christians do  :(


michae1

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What makes you conclude that Hell is the place for non-Christians?

Many non-Christians are behaving/living their lives far better than some Christians do  :(

  Heaven is where Christians reside. Having or living a good life is not the standard by which men can be saved.


richpulubi

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  Heaven is where Christians reside. Having or living a good life is not the standard by which men can be saved.

Is there another heaven for good non Christians? 

And are there any bad Christians(think pedophile priests) in the heaven you believe in?


michae1

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Is there another heaven for good non Christians? 

And are there any bad Christians(think pedophile priests) in the heaven you believe in?

Whoever believes in any God other than Jesus Christ,  must go where that God has prepared a place for you. Since there is only one other who believes he is God, you will go and be with him. Since he has never created anything, you will not have much of an inheritance. Also, what gives you the idea that bad Christians will go unpunished? They won't see hell, but they will have to answer to God.


INDO

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  Heaven is where Christians reside. Having or living a good life is not the standard by which men can be saved.

Do you agree that non-christian can go in heaven?


michae1

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Do you agree that non-christian can go in heaven?

I have already answered your question?


INDO

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I have already answered your question?

If you mean non-christian is not allowed to go in heaven, why God allowed satan to go in heaven? Is Satan a Christian?


regor

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rds

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Also, what gives you the idea that bad Christians will go unpunished? They won't see hell, but they will have to answer to God.


Really? Bad "Christians" won't see hell? From which verse and book it is written?


akoni

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 The issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell.


michae1

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Really? Bad "Christians" won't see hell? From which verse and book it is written?

When I say Christian, I mean a Christian from Christ's perspective. There are many who call themselves Christian and are not. Would you call the thief, who was crucified next to Christ, Christian? He led a bad life, so he must be condemned from your perspective. Fortunately, we don't have that set of rules. If Christ forgives you, it is done and over forever.


INDO

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The issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell.

i agree but michae1 claims (decide) non-christian will go to hell  :bahalaka:


akoni

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When I say Christian, I mean a Christian from Christ's perspective. There are many who call themselves Christian and are not. Would you call the thief, who was crucified next to Christ, Christian? He led a bad life, so he must be condemned from your perspective. Fortunately, we don't have that set of rules. If Christ forgives you, it is done and over forever.

This is a self refuting statement now, he is sure that non christians will end up to hell and now he said its from God perspective when he said christian, the question is how sure are you that God definition of christian is 100% the same with your perspective in condemning non christians. It looks like to me that you act like God in this situation.
« Last Edit: Dec 14, 2013, 09:35 AM by akoni »


akoni

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Oh by the way, your example here of the thief doesn't
Support your stand, it clearly shows that even non christian will end up still to paradise/heaven. And I beg to disagree that when God forgave you its forever sort of once saved always saved.


michae1

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This is a self refuting statement now, he is sure that non christians will end up to hell and now he said its from God perspective when he said christian, the question is how sure are you that God definition of christian is 100% the same with your perspective in condemning non christians. It looks like to me that you act like God in this situation.
It's no secret what a Christian is. John 3:16 explains it all. God knows who believes in him. Christians are believers in Jesus Christ.


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