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To all bible-believing Christians: What is your take of the following verses?

Dadoy · 63 · 10789

Dadoy

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How do you interpret the following verses? (Note to the atheists: It's not my intention to bring condemnation to all of you). I just want to hear the opinion of other fellow bible -believing christians here. Anyway, if you don't believe in God you won't be hurt by this as you will just consider it as mere imagination. :)

Do you agree that those who don't believe in God have no morality and are corrupt?


Psalm 14:

1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.



« Last Edit: Nov 22, 2010, 11:22 PM by Dadoy »


Bp22estafa

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i believe David composed this song to God & it's people. it's one way of sharing their faith to others during their time.

1 The fool says in his heart,
   “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
   there is no one who does good.

 2 The LORD looks down from heaven
   on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
   any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
   there is no one who does good,
   not even one.

 4 Do all these evildoers know nothing?

   They devour my people as though eating bread;
   they never call on the LORD.
5 But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
   for God is present in the company of the righteous.
6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor,
   but the LORD is their refuge.

 7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
   When the LORD restores his people,
   let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!
« Last Edit: Nov 22, 2010, 11:56 PM by Bp22estafa »


mlangseth

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Do you agree that those who don't believe in God have no morality and are corrupt? by Dadoy..

This is one of the misconceptions about atheism that has no basis and no evidence. ..ask Bill Gates, warren Buffet, mark Zuckerberg et al.

Definitely not true.....kindly interview the people in jail?
and the governmen officals who are corrupt like GMA and Cebu governor etc..The Marcoses..Manny Villar etc..please ask them about their belief..
what about prostitutes? ask them also...what about those mothers selling their kids for prostitution? ask them also..

Remember, we are in the Philippines..and what is the most dominant religion?
Your guess is as good as mine.

Thank you.


Dadoy

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Do you agree that those who don't believe in God have no morality and are corrupt? by Dadoy..

This is one of the misconceptions about atheism that has no basis and no evidence. ..ask Bill Gates, warren Buffet, mark Zuckerberg et al.

Definitely not true.....kindly interview the people in jail?
and the governmen officals who are corrupt like GMA and Cebu governor etc..The Marcoses..Manny Villar etc..please ask them about their belief..
what about prostitutes? ask them also...what about those mothers selling their kids for prostitution? ask them also..

Remember, we are in the Philippines..and what is the most dominant religion?
Your guess is as good as mine.

Thank you.

I know what you mean mlangseth. But what we're discussing is How God sees those who said "there is no God". In God's eyes, they are considered corrupt and do not do good.

Doing good works to fellow man doesn't mean you are already good in His eyes.

The people you mentioned who are corrupt only professed that there is God. Their hearts do not really believe in God.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.






mlangseth

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@ Dadoy...I am not worried at all about any  god's judgment of me...how can i be worried? I do not have a personal god nor any deity in my life.

I am not even worried about what other people may think of me, although, I used to, when I was in Pinas.

I am confident and trust that what I am doing for myself and others are the right thing to do.....even if other people might think it is wrong.
In short. I am the master of myself...and will not allow anybody to run my life.

I have posted this before but a few only has seen it so I will repost.
This sums up who I am also:

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid -- Marcus Aurelius


pinoyatheist

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No offense taken @ Dadoy. Beside, the verse is not talking about atheists and atheism.

 :book:

It's just a matter of proper hermeneutics.

Are you familiar with the Psalms 14:1? Well most atheists are quite familiar with the said verse, thanks to the Christians who always use this verse to label those who don’t believe in the Christian god-concept as fools.

In case you don’t know this verse, let me refresh you.

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.
1
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
[/b]

There!

Well, just by reading this verse, now you’ll know why a lot of Christian believers use this passage to atheists. It is quite an entertainment to call an atheist a fool.

But does this verse really say atheists are fools? In first glance it seems that way. But looks can be deceiving.

If you will read the Bible, you’ll notice that the issue of atheism was not really tackled. There are neither characters nor situations in the Bible that focuses about non-believers. Heck! Even the devil believes in God. Non belief is not a treat in the Hebrew God, he’s more concern on people worshiping other god (Remember he’s a jealous God).

But most Christians still believe that this verse means atheism , so they still insist that the “fool” describe in this verse means an atheist.

Really? Let’s see.

Psalm 14 was written for the precentor or choir leader of the temple. So it is safe to say it is address to him. The word “The” is a definite article, a determiner that indicates specificity of reference. So we are talking about a certain type of a PERSON who said in HIS heart that there is no God. This PERSON is specified as a fool. VIOLA! An atheist!

Not so quite.

This person hath said in his heart. Remember the author use the word heart as a metaphor. The word heart in biblical scripture is variously used, sometimes means the mind and understanding, sometimes for the will, sometimes for the affections, sometimes for the conscience, sometimes for the whole soul. Generally, it denotes the whole soul of man and all the faculties of it, not absolutely, but as they are all one principle of moral operations, as they all concur in our doing of good and evil." It sometimes mean as “human nature”.

Now this is more of a “let us choose the right word”. If the fool will said in his mind “That there is no God”, then obviously he’s an atheist. Wait a minute there! An atheist is a person who is not a theist RIGHT! So he doesn’t believe in a god or gods. The Bible is very specific about this, he who doesn’t believe in Elohim. Now let us examine the following sentence: They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. So here the word “heart” just doesn’t mean the mind, since proclaiming the whole shebang doesn’t make the whole person corrupt. We’re talking something bigger here. So I choose human nature as the nearest translation, since human nature is the complete psychological human attributes. So this is not about what’s on his understandings, but rather more on the whole of his individuality.

So according to this verse, the fool is corrupt, they do abominable works and there is none that doeth good. The word fool is translated in Hebrew as “nabhal”. Apart from the Wisdom literature, we find nabhal frequently translated "fool" and nebhalah, "folly"; nabhal, however, it also denotes a wicked person, an evil character, "shamelessly immoral," equivalent to "a son of Belial" (Cheyne), rather than a merely "foolish" person, and nebhalah, "wickedness," "shameless impropriety," rather than simple folly. In the Chokhmah or Wisdom literature, which, within the Bible, is contained in Job, Proverbs (especially), Ecclesiastes, some Psalms and certain portions of the prophetic writings, "fool" and "folly" are frequent and distinctive words. Their significance is best seen in contrast with "Wisdom."

So does the fool in the said verse means lacking knowledge? If we use knowledge to the verse, it sounds like a person who in his knowledge accepted that Elohim doesn’t exist is a vile person. Such statement proves a very bias and short-sightedness in the part of the Psalter.

In Matthew 5:3 Jesus said that those who are “poor in spirit” (Poor means lacking off, spirit connotes to wisdom or knowledge) will have the kingdom of heaven. Another thing, Jesus has called the Pharisees as fools (Mt 23:17, 19). Pharisees were religious leaders in their day and it’s quite strange to say that these religious leaders don’t have any knowledge about the Elohim? So then, using the word lacking knowledge about God seems doesn’t fit.

So let’s choose the word “vile” or wicked person to replace the word fool. We are now talking about a specific person, an immoral person. Hmmmm…let see: An immoral person declares in his very nature, “There is no Elohim.” They (the immoral people) are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Hmmmm…this makes more sense, isn’t it? The Psalter is not talking about non believers; he’s talking about wicked people!

Hay my papaya!

Now let us the following verse: 2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

If you’ll notice this verse, the Psalter was talking about certain knowledge. Is this about the knowledge of the existence of Elohim? Does the absence of knowledge of the existence of a certain community god automatically mean the absence of morality? Or is it talking about a certain knowledge that makes a person seeks God? Remember that this verse is talking about a certain understanding that makes a person seek the Elohim. According to Psalms 119, 1ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD. *n1.1 2Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart. 3They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways. 4Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently. 5O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes! 6Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments. 7I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.

So for the Psalter, The Law is the instruction in the knowledge of God and of men's relation to Him. To seek the Elohim is to obey his laws.

So there it is folks!

Psalm 14:1-5 is not about atheists being fools, but about people in the time of King David who lost interest in the laws of their god. Who perverted the Laws (they are called workers of iniquity. Iniquity means, "The condition of one without law", therefore it is safely to say that they perverted the interpretations of the Law), influences other people to disobey the Torah and have stop to call or accept the God of Israel.

Hope that clears the “fool” issue.


GoodSteward

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^That's good pinoyatheist...

Because some atheist(s) in this forum called believers fools....



pinoyatheist

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^That's good pinoyatheist...

Because some atheist(s) in this forum called believers fools....



Gantihan lang kasi ang nag-yayari @ GoodSteward. You call me fool, I call you fool diba?


GoodSteward

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^ Oh i thought you said the bible verse  "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."  is not referring to atheist?

So saan ang gantihan?

And also you guys dont believe the Bible right? Saan ang gantihan?

please post kahit isang post coming from believers calling you guys fools....Kung wala, saan yun gantihan....

In fact, when she called us fools and other stuffs because of our beliefs, nobody got back at her calling her fool or anything because of her disbelief...Saan yun gantihan?
« Last Edit: Nov 23, 2010, 11:40 AM by GoodSteward »


mdejess

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No offense taken @ Dadoy. Beside, the verse is not talking about atheists and atheism.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

[...]


I just want to ask you, pinoyatheist, what you know about the concept of God among Christians, and Muslims, and Jews, and also Hindus.


From stock knowledge I think they all concur that the God they refer to is the only creator of everything that has a beginning.

So that God is the only being without any beginning and any ending, He is always existing, and He creates everything else, wherefore everything else has a beginning and an ending when He wills it to end -- namely, to no longer exist.

That is my first question: what you know about the concept of God among Christians, and Muslims, and Jews, and also Hindus.


My second question to you is:

If you don't accept God to be the creator of everything that has a beginning, then who is to be given the credit to have given beginning to everything that has a beginning?

You will say that everything has always been existing?

Is that your answer?

But you have not always been existing, have you?



Mdejess


Post Merge: Nov 23, 2010, 12:39 PM
^ Oh i thought you said the bible verse  "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."  is not referring to atheist?

So saan ang gantihan?

And also you guys dont believe the Bible right? Saan ang gantihan?

please post kahit isang post coming from believers calling you guys fools....Kung wala, saan yun gantihan....

In fact, when she called us fools and other stuffs because of our beliefs, nobody got back at her calling her fool or anything because of her disbelief...Saan yun gantihan?


Hi, GoodSteward, glad to meet a theist here.

Are you Christian, Muslim, Jew, or Hindu?



Mdejess
« Last Edit: Nov 23, 2010, 12:39 PM by mdejess »


pinoyatheist

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^ Oh i thought you said the bible verse  "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."  is not referring to atheist?

So saan ang gantihan?

And also you guys dont believe the Bible right? Saan ang gantihan?

please post kahit isang post coming from believers calling you guys fools....Kung wala, saan yun gantihan....

In fact, when she called us fools and other stuffs because of our beliefs, nobody got back at her calling her fool or anything because of her disbelief...Saan yun gantihan?

She? Are you referring to a certain person? Well...labas na ako dyan ha.
I was just referring sa question mo...generally speaking yan.

Ang away kasi dyan eh well you sow what you reap right? So when a theist calls an atheist a fool, then reciprocal lang yan.

But...if its a issue sa PMT...well di ko na alam yan.

Post Merge: Nov 23, 2010, 02:43 PM

I just want to ask you, pinoyatheist, what you know about the concept of God among Christians, and Muslims, and Jews, and also Hindus.

From stock knowledge I think they all concur that the God they refer to is the only creator of everything that has a beginning.

So that God is the only being without any beginning and any ending, He is always existing, and He creates everything else, wherefore everything else has a beginning and an ending when He wills it to end -- namely, to no longer exist.

That is my first question: what you know about the concept of God among Christians, and Muslims, and Jews, and also Hindus.

Oh hi @ mdejess

Ok...let me see... :book:

What you know about the concept of God among Christians, and Muslims, and Jews, and also Hindus?

Base on their god-belief, I think the concept between Jews, Christians and Muslim as almost totally the same, except that Muslim is less anthropomorphic compare to Jews and Christians. Let see...all of these 3 religions base their belief in a book. All are monotheistic. what else...

Let us talk about the Jews first. If you want to have the complete concept of the Jewish God, you have to look at some of Rambam's thirteen principles of faith.

1. God is the Creator and Ruler of all things. He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.

2. That there is no unity that is in any way like His.( I think Islam also believe in this one and that is why Jews and Muslim doesn't accept the Christian Trinity Doctrine)

3. That physical concepts do not apply to God. (So that's why Jesus is not accepted as God by the Jews and Muslims)

4. God is first and last.

5. You only have to pray to God and no one else.

6. God knows all of man's deeds and thoughts.

7. God rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him.

8. That the dead will be brought back to life when God wills it to happen.

Ok...I didn't put the other 5 because it is not about God. So there...God is a creator and sustainer of the universe, the Law Giver, the omnipotent and omniscient One, etc. etc.

Base on this we can say that most religions who are into a certain god-concept share this, except Hinduism which has 13 billion gods.

Quote
My second question to you is:

If you don't accept God to be the creator of everything that has a beginning, then who is to be given the credit to have given beginning to everything that has a beginning?

You will say that everything has always been existing?

Is that your answer?

But you have not always been existing, have you?

Mdejess

 :scratch:
Notice your statement:

You will say that everything has always been existing?

Is that your answer?

But you have not always been existing, have you?


So? Let see.

a.) Everything has a beginning.
b.) I (pinoy atheist) began in some point.

Now from (a) and (b),  Are you talking about me or "everything" @ Mdejess? Is my beginning the same of everything ? :think:

If you will make a clear on this I will answer your second question. :dont:

Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: Nov 23, 2010, 02:43 PM by pinoyatheist »


mdejess

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[...]

If you will make a clear on this I will answer your second question. :dont:

Have a nice day.

Here is the text of my second question to you:

Quote from: Mdejess
My second question to you is:

If you don't accept God to be the creator of everything that has a beginning, then who is to be given the credit to have given beginning to everything that has a beginning?

You will say that everything has always been existing?

Is that your answer?

But you have not always been existing, have you?



Let me break up the text into several lines:

    1. If you don't accept God to be the creator of everything that has a beginning,

    2. then who is to be given the credit to have given beginning to everything that has a beginning?

    3. You will say that everything has always been existing?

    4. Is that your answer?

    5. But you have not always been existing, have you?

Which line or lines do you not understand?

Anyway, I will just be brief with words, here is the question:

    Who for you as an atheist is the ultimate source of everything including yourself that has a beginning?


Mdejess


Anon

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Quote
Let me break up the text into several lines:

1. If you don't accept God to be the creator of everything that has a beginning,

2. then who is to be given the credit to have given beginning to everything that has a beginning?

3. You will say that everything has always been existing?

4. Is that your answer?

5. But you have not always been existing, have you?

Which line or lines do you not understand?

Anyway, I will just be brief with words, here is the question:

Who for you as an atheist is the ultimate source of everything including yourself that has a beginning?


Mdejess

Meh. This line of reasoning (first cause, prime mover, kalam, and similar arguments) is very old and tiring. It has already been debunked many times (philosophically and scientifically).

Now, why would you assume that a God, specifically your brand of god (what ever brand it is) caused our universe? Is your God the only possible cause? How do you know that your brand of God caused it? Please answer these because I'm curious as to how you end up believing that a God caused our universe since based on the Big Bang model (both atheist and theist scientists agree with this model), we don't know what happened before t=0. No one can really tell what happened before the BB.

Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that our universe really had a cause, does it show that that cause have some specific attributes (like omniscience, benevolence, etc.)? Note that cause is not equal to God. It's possible that aliens caused our universe. It is also possible that godS (plural) caused it. Or our universe could be a result of two universes that collides each other. Or our universe is a result of a black hole or white hole[?]. Heck, it is even also "possible" that your God or other's god caused our universe. These are just some of the possibilities. But possibility is not reality. We simply don't know because, as of now, we don't have any data as to what happened before the BB.

Anyway, all in all, your reasoning/argument above does not really prove or show that Theism is true. Rather, it shows/proves Deism.

Quote
Who for you as an atheist is the ultimate source of everything including yourself that has a beginning?
Who caused God? (infinite regress). If you'll say that God is uncaused, then Occam's razor would just cut your God out since it is much simpler to assume that our universe is eternal than to assume that god is the one eternal.


Post Merge: Nov 23, 2010, 09:05 PM
@mdejess

The first cause/kalam argument/prime mover argument (or whatever you call it), is just an ontological proof in disguise. The premises are not really supported by any empirical evidences since like I said, there is no evidence or data whatsoever that can tell or show us as to what really happened prior to the Big Bang. If you have any empirical data that can tell us what happened before the BB then please show it here for you will be the first in history.

OR if you are going to defend your argument above philosophically (not scientifically) and support  your premises with assumptions and/or metaphysical wabble instead of solid and empirical evidences, then forget it. Like I said, possibility is not reality. For all we know, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unicorn caused our universe. Hehe.
« Last Edit: Nov 23, 2010, 09:13 PM by Anon »


Bp22estafa

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good for you then mlangseth. you shouldn't have been affected by a single post by a believer since you don't really care what people have to say about you. if you are happy about your life well good, if others are happy about theirs, we should be happy for them also. it really has nothing to do with religion. it's usually personal agenda that gets in the way towards common good for everyone.

@ Dadoy...I am not worried at all about any  god's judgment of me...how can i be worried? I do not have a personal god nor any deity in my life.

I am not even worried about what other people may think of me, although, I used to, when I was in Pinas.

I am confident and trust that what I am doing for myself and others are the right thing to do.....even if other people might think it is wrong.
In short. I am the master of myself...and will not allow anybody to run my life.

I have posted this before but a few only has seen it so I will repost.
This sums up who I am also:

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid -- Marcus Aurelius

« Last Edit: Nov 23, 2010, 10:56 PM by Bp22estafa »


mlangseth

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Thank you Bp22estafa.... :-* :cool2:


 


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  • jd2281: newbie po
    Feb 25, 2019, 12:26 PM
  • ejllantino: present... 1st time
    Feb 24, 2019, 07:14 PM
  • rheiel: present. first time
    Feb 24, 2019, 11:04 AM
  • MELVIE: thanks po
    Feb 24, 2019, 12:50 AM
  • steph123: hello po, ask lang po, ilang months po ba ang hihintayin after mo ma process ang mga documents para maitama ang mali sa NSO?
    Feb 11, 2019, 03:13 PM
  • Deborah: newbie here.thanks
    Feb 08, 2019, 02:17 PM
  • marj0503: hello im newbie here
    Jan 31, 2019, 10:53 AM
  • yan24: any one here planning to start a tesda skill training center
    Jan 26, 2019, 12:07 PM
  • manzjon: Forex trading forum
    Jan 25, 2019, 02:16 PM
  • Lizette Ramos: Pwede po bang patulong... Maganda po ba ang gasul retailing business?
    Jan 24, 2019, 09:14 PM
  • Imnobody: Hi sino naghahanap ng casino financer dito?
    Jan 16, 2019, 09:59 PM
  • Odlanyer22: Good day!
    Jan 16, 2019, 09:55 PM
  • maryen: at kung sakaling may somobra sa food na nailuto.. dapat po bang bayaran ng client un .. or ipapa take mo na sakanila?...
    Jan 16, 2019, 03:52 PM
  • maryen: HI! GOOD DAY! newbiz lang po... question lang po regarding sa catering.. if may 50pax po ako dapat lang po ba na sakto ang serving ng food?
    Jan 16, 2019, 03:50 PM
  • mark_Lee: cno na nag organico dito scam po ba yun or legit
    Jan 09, 2019, 03:04 AM
  • kuray08: Have a Prosperous New Year to all..
    Jan 06, 2019, 09:27 PM
  • ethan: Sino po may auto supply business dito? How profitable po ba ito in terms of monthly income? Lalo na kung meron na one or two na competition.
    Jan 04, 2019, 11:34 AM
  • Niel Jhacoubs: HAPPY NEW YEAR!
    Jan 02, 2019, 04:37 PM